Predestination & Free Will?
Visitor: You can not be dogmatic and say it's all election and predestination when there are specific verses that talk about mans response. I recommend you listen to John MacArthur's sermon on election and free will.
Response: Thank you for sharing your assertion. First, I want to assure you that I believe man is required to respond in faith to the gospel. But that does not mean that the natural man has a free will to believe in Jesus. I think the issue here is about definitions. It is important to define what we are talking about up front. When you say man has a free will, what do you mean? Free from what? Free from sin? Also let me say that if you think Dr. John MacArthur is arguing for free will then, I believe, you may have profoundly misunderstood him. He actually affirms exactly the same thing all other Reformed thinkers do about this issue. With him, we affirm that all men make voluntary choices and no one is coercing anyone against their will to make a choice. We always chose what we desire the most. But that is not the issue of the free will debate...
Problem is that the person without the Holy Spirit (the unregenerate) always desires that which is contrary to God. Nothing he does proceeds from a heart that loves God. The issue of free will (or not) is to ask this: left to themselves (as fallen human creatures who are in bondage to a corruption of nature), does anyone have a free will to believe in Jesus Christ? We all have a will, but we use it wrongly ...we do not have the will to believe in Christ, apart from grace. The need for grace does away with free will altogether because if man's will was naturally free he would not need grace at all. He could come to Christ on his own. But ask yourself, apart from the work of the Holy Spirit will anyone freely come to faith in Christ? If your answer is no, then you reject free will the same way I do. So to teach man has a free will in this sense, i.e. that the natural man has a free will overthrows the gospel ... it is precisely because man is in bondage that he needs Christ to set him free." (John 8:34, 36)
The discussion about free will has always historically been about the bondage of the will and affections. And that which is in bondage is not free. We are not talking about not being free to choose which toothpaste we are going to use tomorrow morning. We are talking about does a fallen person have the ability to make a good saving choice apart from the work of the Holy Spirit? The Bible seems pretty clear on this. Hope this helps clarify a bit.
Solus Christus
John W. Hendryx
John W. Hendryx
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Comments:
Far too many people think that "free will" means having the capacity to make choices. However, the capacity to make choices is merely will. In order for the will to be free, it must have the right to make those choices.Man clearly doesn't have the right to choose evil since God punishes evil. Rights are inalienable and are not subject to punishment by any authority, including God - He who is presumed to be the source of so-called "free will."
Again, what many are calling "free will" is simply "will."
Are humans capable of choosing salvation while in their totally depraved state? No. Jesus said regarding salvation "With men this is impossible." Paul quoted from the Old Testament when he wrote that there is none that does good, none that seeks after God. The only ones who are capable of choosing salvation, of choosing God, are those whom God chose from before the foundation of the world and, even with them, the capacity to choose salvation and choose God cannot come about until God regenerates them.
Excellent response John, thanks!
I fall in with the response Benjamin made - sort of. I also believed in "free" will most of my life, or rather, I never considered the issue that much because I didn't think it mattered so long as I believed.
Due to a series of oddities I saw at my (now previous) Pelagian Church that didn't seem to line up with what I was reading in the Bible I started investigating and questioning. (That's how the Lord led me to this website a year or so ago.)
Looking back there were a number of inconsistencies at the church I attended but two main things got my attention:
- "Saving" people by having them repeat a prayer after the preacher without any hint of them having grieved about their sin and needing to repent was my first issue. (Other than saying "I believe Jesus died for my sins")... you all know what I mean. How can a person really believe it they don't even know what their sins are, how can they admit they need redemption, etc....
2nd issue - was the music at my Church. Many songs in the theme of "I have decided to follow Jesus" made me question and again look to the Bible. That led to invesigation of The Attributes of God which led me to a much MUCH larger understanding of how truly magnificient God is. I don't think he "needs" me to "decide" to follow him. I am sure he put that desire to make a decision in my heart and I can no more decide to follow or not follow than water cascading down a mountain can decide its direction.
PLEASE feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Thanks
Jay
